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Thread: Right to work for less coming to Missouri

  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by house77 View Post
    Well, I've been working in skilled labor for 12 years, so yeah... I sort of doubt that. That's who I consult. Currently, my clients hire people with ZERO technical knowledge because the job pool sucks so hard. They'd rather get young people who show a good work ethic and spend the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to train them... and all of those years... because they're better workers. (Then, they pay them starting $60K and will make over $100K in a matter of a few years.)

    Feel free to Google away. You'll find that there is a dire need for skilled labor throughout the country. Having clients in every state and every Canadian province, I have the personal knowledge to support that as well.
    Either I misunderstood what you do, or you're misrepresenting it a bit for purposes here. Either way I'm not sure what most of that has to do with RTW. You're turning it into an argument about the most dire cases of labor demand. Which is a small % of labor.

    "
    Why are the Russians suddenly a problem?" -Bgats

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellanby_equals_grit View Post
    Are you arguing that the states at the forefront of poverty, lack of healthcare, poor education, and 100 other measurables are doing great?
    I was kind of fucking around, thus the wink. Those states have a lot of major issues they need to iron out. However, it can't be denied that economically they're growing. Companies are moving there. And people are moving there.

    For example, all of my clients in Texas are fucking printing money. Printing. They can't keep up. They can't hire enough quality people. Their customers don't even give a shit what the work costs. Do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by mellanby_equals_grit View Post
    I do respect House. I just think he is dead wrong on this.
    That's cool. You know me. I consider you a friend. I'll never start mother fucking anyone for having a dissenting opinion. I'm not that passionate. There are more important things in life.

    I think most people on this board know that I avoid policical threads because I don't keep up with politics. The only reason I wade into this one is personal experience.
    Official Sponsor of all things Mizzou Football, the non-existant Jose Oquendo STOP sign, and the Rally Hoosier!


  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellanby_equals_grit View Post
    I love hearing "the union treated me like shit when blah blah blah..." stories... Let's take all the stories in history of the union not doing right by a member and weigh that against all the stories of an employer not doing right by an employee and see who wins.. I know who I have my money on (although it would be more money if I was in a union).
    Tied for first incident rate. Although I guarantee the employer highjinx cost more $.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by house77 View Post
    I was kind of fucking around, thus the wink. Those states have a lot of major issues they need to iron out. However, it can't be denied that economically they're growing. Companies are moving there. And people are moving there.

    For example, all of my clients in Texas are fucking printing money. Printing. They can't keep up. They can't hire enough quality people. Their customers don't even give a shit what the work costs. Do it.




    That's cool. You know me. I consider you a friend. I'll never start mother fucking anyone for having a dissenting opinion. I'm not that passionate. There are more important things in life.

    I think most people on this board know that I avoid policical threads because I don't keep up with politics. The only reason I wade into this one is personal experience.
    There are companies moving there.. Because they can pay employees far far less. Which sort of goes to your earlier argument that they can negotiate just as well.

    "
    Why are the Russians suddenly a problem?" -Bgats

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellanby_equals_grit View Post
    Either I misunderstood what you do, or you're misrepresenting it a bit for purposes here. Either way I'm not sure what most of that has to do with RTW. You're turning it into an argument about the most dire cases of labor demand. Which is a small % of labor.
    I doubt we've ever really sat down and discussed my work. Even if we have, most people don't get it immediately. Either way, it doesn't matter.

    I've had clients who were initially union. I'm not talking huge companies. These are companies with revenues less than $1M annually. They struggled mightily because of union complications. Eventually, they became non-union shops and faired much better. They also ultimately were able to pay their employees more. I suppose that's my only point. Just because you're not union, it doesn't mean the blue collar worker is getting fucked.
    Official Sponsor of all things Mizzou Football, the non-existant Jose Oquendo STOP sign, and the Rally Hoosier!


  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taint View Post
    Was enlightened by the in laws as to how well the dudes at Granite City steel have it after being laid off en masse. They apparently got 80(?)% of their regular pay for 18 months after being shitcanned, which was a tremendous, undeserved gesture by their overlords, who could have just "thrown them out on the streets" without anything. In the end, they have no right to complain about anything because, after all, they chose to work there.
    And the state extended their unemployment benefits for another six months right before Christmas.

    http://www3.illinois.gov/PressReleas...2&RecNum=13938
    " I don't think anyone knows what Treason is anymore.." ~ So Taint

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by house77 View Post
    Most of the world does fine negotiating their own pay and benefits.
    What world is this?
    " I don't think anyone knows what Treason is anymore.." ~ So Taint

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekken View Post
    And now some of the plant (and hopefully a lot more) is coming back online. We had that business for a long time and I'd like to get it back.
    Now only if we would quit importing steel from Wang's in-laws.
    " I don't think anyone knows what Treason is anymore.." ~ So Taint

  9. #84
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    My employer has stalled for the past two years and has basically said no contracts will be agreed upon until the election. Well now I'm pretty much fucked.

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.A. View Post
    Now only if we would quit importing steel from Wang's in-laws.
    That's the hard part
    Not at the table Carlos.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Man View Post
    The point is that southern states have always had a harder line against organized labor.

    Moon
    Who would have ever thought this would be the case in former slave states....
    " I don't think anyone knows what Treason is anymore.." ~ So Taint

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.A. View Post
    Now only if we would quit importing steel from Wang's in-laws.
    Not going to happen. Same with coal. The infrastructure is gone. We'd have to build new mills for all of these industries that we used to have. And there's no way that's going to happen.

    We are a post-industrial country now. And we need to start training young people (and re-training older people) to survive in that environment. That is what's most insidious about Trump's appeal - he's selling a vision of the US that we will never get back, but people want to believe it. Nostalgia is powerful.

    Moon

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Man View Post
    Not going to happen. Same with coal. The infrastructure is gone. We'd have to build new mills for all of these industries that we used to have. And there's no way that's going to happen.

    We are a post-industrial country now. And we need to start training young people (and re-training older people) to survive in that environment. That is what's most insidious about Trump's appeal - he's selling a vision of the US that we will never get back, but people want to believe it. Nostalgia is powerful.

    Moon
    The US surprisingly has a lot of coal.
    Not at the table Carlos.

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekken View Post
    The US surprisingly has a lot of coal.
    Very dirty coal that no one wants to buy. And coal companies going belly up daily.

    Go down to the Eagleton building and peruse the bankruptcy files for Peabody and Arch coal. Those lovely businesses that are doing so well by their former employees that they are lavishing huge golden parachutes on execs, and trying their best to wiggle out of pension obligations to the humps who are going to die young from black lung.

    Nah, unions suck, man. We can all negotiate great deals on our own!

    Moon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekken View Post
    The US surprisingly has a lot of coal.
    Shut the front door.
    " I don't think anyone knows what Treason is anymore.." ~ So Taint

  16. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Man View Post
    Very dirty coal that no one wants to buy. And coal companies going belly up daily.

    Go down to the Eagleton building and peruse the bankruptcy files for Peabody and Arch coal. Those lovely businesses that are doing so well by their former employees that they are lavishing huge golden parachutes on execs, and trying their best to wiggle out of pension obligations to the humps who are going to die young from black lung.

    Nah, unions suck, man. We can all negotiate great deals on our own!

    Moon
    Clean coal technologies have come a long way. The scrubbers being used at various plants around the area are pretty remarkable.
    Not at the table Carlos.

  17. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekken View Post
    Clean coal technologies have come a long way. The scrubbers being used at various plants around the area are pretty remarkable.
    The cost of solar and wind is falling too quickly for coal to ever make a meaningful comeback. And without the externalities. Time to move on.

    Moon

  18. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Man View Post
    The cost of solar and wind is falling too quickly for coal to ever make a meaningful comeback. And without the externalities. Time to move on.

    Moon
    Solar and wind cannot match the output of coal. Fossil fueled plants aren't dying any time soon.
    Not at the table Carlos.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Man View Post
    Very dirty coal that no one wants to buy. And coal companies going belly up daily.

    Go down to the Eagleton building and peruse the bankruptcy files for Peabody and Arch coal. Those lovely businesses that are doing so well by their former employees that they are lavishing huge golden parachutes on execs, and trying their best to wiggle out of pension obligations to the humps who are going to die young from black lung.

    Nah, unions suck, man. We can all negotiate great deals on our own!

    Moon
    Except demand from Indonesia, China, Vietnam PRB and Illinois Basin coal is very high. Coal companies are going bust and folks like Warren Buffet are buying the shit out them. Fuck Peaboby/Arch they should honor their agreements.

    Tech is there to convert 90%gaseous CO2 directly to gasoline and other products from coal plant flue gas using new catalysts that be easily retrofitted to existing AQCS. Gasification needs to go through a few more growing pains, but 2 production plants in service now is a good start.

    I could go further, but the point is coal isn't dead. Economics will continue to favor gas for the longer term, coal will trend down to about 12-15% of the energy portfolio.

  20. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekken View Post
    Solar and wind cannot match the output of coal. Fossil fueled plants aren't dying any time soon.
    No one said it was dead today. But it is on the decline, has been for a very long time, and will likely continue to fall. Natural gas is also killing coal. If your intent is to plan for coal as your primary source of energy going forward, then we're all in big trouble. Those jobs are not coming back.

    Moon

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Man View Post
    The cost of solar and wind is falling too quickly for coal to ever make a meaningful comeback. And without the externalities. Time to move on.

    Moon
    Not wind, and it won't ever. Mechanics simply limit wind to modest production and it has to be supplemented with too much gas now. Wind will never be viable baseload generation.

    Solar is really interesting, but still needs a "moon shot" in tech advancement to be completly feasible. Still needs gas and supplement for peak demands and off peak loads.

  22. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muleskinner View Post
    Except demand from Indonesia, China, Vietnam PRB and Illinois Basin coal is very high. Coal companies are going bust and folks like Warren Buffet are buying the shit out them. Fuck Peaboby/Arch they should honor their agreements.

    Tech is there to convert 90%gaseous CO2 directly to gasoline and other products from coal plant flue gas using new catalysts that be easily retrofitted to existing AQCS. Gasification needs to go through a few more growing pains, but 2 production plants in service now is a good start.

    I could go further, but the point is coal isn't dead. Economics will continue to favor gas for the longer term, coal will trend down to about 12-15% of the energy portfolio.
    Wrong. The collapse of Chinese demand for US coal is what killed Peabody and Arch. And like I told Tekken, I didn't say it was dead. I said there's no way you should expect coal to return to anything like previous levels, and it is only likely to get worse.

    Moon

  23. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muleskinner View Post
    Not wind, and it won't ever. Mechanics simply limit wind to modest production and it has to be supplemented with too much gas now. Wind will never be viable baseload generation.

    Solar is really interesting, but still needs a "moon shot" in tech advancement to be completly feasible. Still needs gas and supplement for peak demands and off peak loads.
    Once again, no one ever said coal will "disappear."

    Moon

  24. #99
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    I'm going to put a coal-burning stove in the middle of the house and have bricks delivered like we did in West Germany.

    So there!
    " I don't think anyone knows what Treason is anymore.." ~ So Taint

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Man View Post
    Wrong. The collapse of Chinese demand for US coal is what killed Peabody and Arch. And like I told Tekken, I didn't say it was dead. I said there's no way you should expect coal to return to anything like previous levels, and it is only likely to get worse.

    Moon
    Moon, just FYI, Energy is my business now, You should have noted that I said PRB and Illinois Basin coal particularly, not the sub bituminous coal Peaboby was supplying from Australia which has been crushed in China. The supercritical boilers they built require a very fine, high btu coal to function properly.

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